BCSA: Herding

08.16.08	I'm a BCSA member in good standing but I never can seem to get the login thingy going to email right from the site. I had an idea about the herding evaluations. I like the word "evaluation". It summarizes what the dog is doing on that given day, leaving the door open for progress for the dog in the future. Perhaps we could set it up so that an owner could, after three positive "evaluations", request a "test", where the criteria is made relatively firm for a day. A positive result from both the evaluations and the test might encourage the owner to go further in this great sport, to the benefit of the breed. I know there is the HT and the PT, but this would institute the "evaluation" as a learning experience for the dog, not just a one day test but perhaps the beginning of its herding career. If a person is qualified to evaluate a dog, this person is also teaching the dog during the evaluation by giving it its first exposure to stock. After three times a dog might have learned quite a bit. This would establish the evaluation as an opportunity to teach, and spread the word about the purpose and history of this breed, as well as give some dogs a chance to finally do what they really want to do. Margaret Lass-Gardiner
08.16.08	After reading over the changes and the posts of other members, I feel that the Herding Instinct Testing should not be changed. There is no reason to. And it could definitely result in less participation, if certificates are discontinued. JMO Judy W Wilson
07.14.08	Having attended all of the instinct testing days at the national specialty and seen first hand how thrilled dog owners are with their dogs, I think the test/evaluation should continue as it is. I don't think that changing the name will make much difference. The majority of the people/dogs entered in instinct testing are entirely new to herding with their dogs. They often have no idea what their dog's reaction to sheep will be and are often very pleasantly surprised to see their dog go straight to work. This test/evaluation is definitely not an indication of a future herding champion but it often creates enough lasting interest for the owner to pursue the sport further. Denise Teal
07.13.08	I personally like the test as it stands, and I also don’t really understand the reason for the change. Maybe the explanation isn’t clear enough to me. We used to have herding trials in the Kansas City area in the 90’s, put on by the local Sheltie and Collie clubs-this was before BCs were moved into the herding group. Our Border Collie was used to set the sheep for the other dogs. Now we don’t have local trials, finding trainers requires a lot of driving, and I, like other people, am proud of the certificate that my dog received at the Specialty last year. I like the test the way it is. Carol Clark, Kansas City MO
07.11.08	In regards to the Herding Instinct Test/Evaluation semantics, I think that either word is acceptable as the requirements you have sent can be either. However the definition of test (according to Webster dictionary) would be more of what your guidelines indicate ie. test is defined as "something (series of exercises) for measuring the skill, knowledge, intelligence, capacities, or aptitudes of an individual" and/ or test is also defined as "a critical examination, evaluation, or observation." As a novice herder, I like the test as it stands. It helps novice people have a better understanding of what is required of our dogs and keeps the herding instinct as an integral part of the Border Collie. Passing this test, can promote more interest in us novice people. I do think that having an evaluator who is people and dog friendly and can offer us new people support and encouragement is a must. Having had a bad experience at this past year's National (yes, I had the BC who broke loose from a friend and raced out on the B course and yes, I was mortified to have caused such a problem) and was then summarily dismissed by a judge prior to the HT evaluation (I was in the ring a total of 30 seconds), I was never going to herd again. However I decided to have my two youngest dogs continue with the Instinct test. Joyce Norris who was the evaluator made it such a wonderful experience that I came home with a desire to continue herding. I can never be as successful or as wonderful a handler as experienced people like you and Joyce, but if we don't get the right experience as novices, there will be fewer people who have a keen interest in maintaining herding as the most important part of this great breed. The novice people are the future. I hope I have made sense. Thank you for all that you do for club, for herding, and for listening. You have wonderful dogs and are in a class of handlers that I can only dream about. Mary Pat Ezzo
07.11.08	I feel strongly that a one-time test is not a necessarily a good indicator of herding abilities. Many factors are involved, including the age of the dog. A young dog is not always "turned-on" to sheep right away. The instinct test should merely be a one-time evaluation. Pre-trial is more of an indicator of what a dog will be able to do. Joanne Gamba
07.09.08	I guess my first question is "why"? If you want to no longer call it a test and instead use evaluation, I guess I don't have an issue with that. That may clear up any potential confusion for newbies between an HT and an instinct evaluation. However, if the BCSA agrees to really down play this and I strongly disagree with that tactic, you will lose the interest of newbies. I live in central Iowa, an agricultural state. For 4 years I've driven 1 1/2 hours ONE way to herding lessons. This year I'm in search of a new instructor because my longtime teacher is having some serious health problems. I thought I found someone about an hour away but it was such a negative experience, I can't go back. I won't discuss this on a public forum but am willing to discuss it privately. I've spent 2 years searching for land to lease for my own sheep and still have found nothing. I've looked into other options and I'm looking at trips of 2-5 hours one way...... I can give you the names of multiple club members in the same dilemma as myself. So with that said, I strongly disagree that herding is more readily available. Megan Harrison
07.09.08	I like the changes and like the reasoning behind them. I particularly like the last sentence added to explain that evaluations are just a start and aren’t meant to give a critical test of the dog’s trainability or usefulness. I also think the biggest benefit from continuing this program in any form is introducing people to herding and encouraging them to learn more about herding ability. I’m sure there are a good number people who have started herding training with a simple instinct evaluation. Additional comment: Why not change the word ‘test’ under fees to ‘evaluation’ to be consistent with the rest of the document (couple of instances)? Richard Whorton
07.09.08	The evaluation form looks good. My suggestion would be that there should be places on the form for if the dog shuts down, or stops working the stock after initially circling or showing interest. What if, after slight corrections, the dog stops working and runs to the gate? What if the dog stops working and starts eating poop or grass? What if the dog starts working, then runs back to his owner? There should be places to note those behaviors during the test. Scott Lucken
07.09.08	The proposed changes seem like a good idea to me Betty Swenson
07.09.08	The forms look great! The only suggestion I would like to see is on the Evaluation Form an indication of which items checked will cause the dog 'not' to pass as opposed to which items checked will allow the dog to pass. Does that make sense? Then when I look at my dog's evaluation I can readily see why the evaluator did not pass my dog. Both of my dogs passed the evaluation when I took them to the BCSA specialty - but being a 'newbie' I had no idea why or why not. At the specialty, the test were always so busy with people waiting that I didn't really want to take the evaluator's time to inquire why or why not the dog passed. I realize that it is the evaluator's opinion, but having something in black and white indicating why they did not pass would be helpful. Maybe, if they do not pass, the evaluator writes down why (??). Anyway - I like your suggestions for updates!! John Yaquinta
07.08.08	The changes seem to be merely semantics, not substantive. So, why are they being made? Is it to avoid confusion with AKC's Herding Instinct Certification? Seems to me that any HIC is merely an indicator of a dog's interest. As you and I both know, it really has no value as a predictor of a dog's eventual success in herding training. To me, the true value of BCSA's HIC program is the way it introduces people to the idea of herding with their Border Collie. Even though more and more trainers have become available over the years, there are still plenty of folks who either don't have a place to go or don't know there is a place near them. They depend on BCSA's annual HIC program to see how their dog reacts to stock. My only concern is whether no longer offering the Herding Instinct Certificate would decrease participation. Unfortunately, I fear it may do exactly that. Plenty of first time folks are awfully proud of their dog's HIC Certificate. In fact, Carol Delsman is now encouraging folks to cash in on that desire to get another ribbon or certificate. At the herding judges seminars she is now telling people to hook up with all-breed clubs and offer HIC testing at all-breed shows. She is convinced that it not only makes a lot of money for the herding club, but it also does encourage newcomers to the world of herding. So, in conclusion, I personally have no objection to changing it from a "test" to an "evaluation", but I think it would be a mistake to stop offering certificates. Kelly Whiteman
07.08.08	I'm in favor of the purposed changes that I read. I think that it is important that people don't read too much into an HIC. It's a great way to help people see whether their dog has any interest in the stock but you and I both know that one time in the pen isn't always an accurate assessment of the hidden talents of a dog. Especially if it's a very young dog or a dog that has a bit of age on it and was never exposed to livestock as a youngster. Other than a few spelling changes and a couple of punctuation changes, it looks good to me. Gail Storm
07.08.08	It's always hard to go back and redo something. The proposal as I see it doesn't change the passing requirements for the dog. All you seem to be doing is trying to de emphasize the importance of the test/evaluation. However, unless you change the HIT title on dogs that have already earned it to HIE, then I think in many peoples eyes it's going to look like a dog that has the HIT title is better than the dog that has the HIE title. Not to people who are really into herding, but to people who aren't into herding but are trying not to dumb down the herding instinct, I think it will make a difference. And in reality, there isn't any difference. I would also like to address part of your comment on why you think this change should be made. "There are now many good instructors available and clinics/camp opportunities for expanding knowledge are also frequently available. When an individual decides to look into herding for practical purposes or as a sport they can easily turn to instruction at a time or place that suits them." I think this statement is true in certain areas of the country but definitely not in others. Most of the people I know have long drives (1 1/2 hours or more one way) to get to herding training. With the cost of gas there are a lot fewer new(er) people willing to make that drive. There are very few herding clinics available that new people can get into. I have tried several times but the "oldsters" have the inside track and the clinics in my area are full before "new" people can get their dogs in. I don't think changing the name will make any difference to people who are really into herding. But I don't think those are the people who are currently entering herding instinct tests. The herding people already know how to evaluate the herding instinct in their dogs. It's the rest of us that are pretty clueless :-). Luann Tillman